English economist John Maynard Keynes once said, “The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones.”

Many in the baseball world can relate to this quote, as it is a sport notoriously stuck in its ways and slow to change. To many outside its core fans, the game of baseball is:

• Too long
• Too boring
• Too old
• Too traditional

What would happen if a baseball team threw those negative perceptions up against a wall and did the opposite?

Enter the Savannah Bananas.

Before the Bananas, Savannah, Georgia had the Sand Gnats, a Class-A affiliate of the New York Mets. In their final season in 2015, the Sand Gnats averaged 1,962 fans per game, ranking #144 out of 176 MLB-affiliated teams.

The Savannah Bananas, a member of the Coastal Plain League (a collegiate league not affiliated with any MLB club), has sold out every single game since their inaugural season in 2016, doubling attendance with nearly 4,000 fans. Every. Single. Game.

They did it by changing the game.

You think baseball’s too long? The Savannah Bananas play “Banana Ball,” billed as the world’s fastest and most entertaining brand of baseball. There are no bunts, and no visits to the mound. If someone in the stands catches a foul ball, the batter is out. Games have a two-hour time limit. And that’s just for starters.

You think baseball is too boring? The Bananas play in kilts. Or stilts. Players may get escorted to the plate by a pep band. They have The Banana Nanas, a senior citizen dance team, and the Man-Nana’s, a Dad Bod Cheerleading Squad.

You think baseball is too old? The Bananas have 2.7 million followers on TikTok. They have their own Savannah Banana Beer and specialty alcoholic drink, The Slippery Banana.

You think baseball is too traditional? The owner, Jesse Cole, wears a yellow tuxedo at every game.

Players sign autographs before the game, and let fans sign autographs on their stuff. Instead of typical postgame interviews, players may be interviewed in the shower, in the bathroom stall, in an ice bath, in a massage chair, or in their own bed.

Before you say, “sounds like the Harlem Globetrotters of baseball,” you need to recognize that the Savannah Bananas are intensely local (though, like the Globetrotters, they also tour) and the entertainment level and variety is way deeper. And before you dismiss it as a circus sideshow, the Bananas have legit talent. Their website lists seven Bananas alumni who were drafted into Major League Baseball.

Perhaps to best understand the reasons behind the Savannah Bananas success, start by looking at the mission statement, as referenced by Cole: “We exist to make baseball fun.” Everything the Bananas do must fit the mantra. So, explained Cole, “We looked at every boring play. And got rid of it.”

Fun influences every decision made regarding the team, from the fan experience to the merchandise to the rules of the game itself. In Savannah, Georgia, The Savannah Bananas are literally redefining the very perceptions of baseball…a 146-year-old game hampered by old, traditional images. To do that, the Bananas understand what any successful brand attempting to shift deeply held perceptions understands…Go Big or Go Home. Subtle changes won’t cut it. Consider reading Cole’s new book, “Fans First: Change The Game, Break The Rules, & Create An Unforgettable Experience.”

Hey, can you think of a medium that was also invented in the 1800s that is hampered by old, traditional images that’s being challenged more than ever in 2022?

Wouldn’t it be fun to take a ratings-challenged radio station, throw some negative perceptions up against a wall, and do the opposite?

Jon Gay spent 15 years in radio in programming and on-air positions in Burlington, Vermont, Detroit, and New Orleans. Following a downsizing, he dove full-time into podcasting, starting JAG in Detroit Podcasts in 2018. Today he writes, records, edits, and co-hosts podcasts for clients and offers tips on his own podcast, “The JAG Show.” For this week’s Tuesdays With Coleman, I spoke with Jon about how his full-time experiences in each medium inform his perspectives on both.

What are some of the most valuable radio lessons for podcasters?

Everything that applies to building a great morning show applies to podcasts. Be compelling. Get to the point. Don’t beat around the bush.

I had an early radio mentor named Ben Hamilton who told me that doing the radio show was like driving in NASCAR. You do all your work in the pit. When the light turns green, all you got to do is drive the car. And I think the same applies to podcasts.

And, you know, I think having that internal clock from working in radio, in PPM markets especially, is really important where you almost have that axe over your head saying, get to the point and be compelling, or your listeners are going to punch out and turn to the other station.

That’s such a classic radio skill, being able to know exactly how long you have to talk in a break and the ability to stop without even looking at a clock. Many podcasters probably figure they can talk as long as they want, so maybe they don’t develop that skill.

At a chamber of commerce meeting when I joined, they said give us a 30-second pitch about you and your business. So I did, and they had a stopwatch to keep everything on time. The woman with the stopwatch didn’t say anything. I stopped and she said, “Wow, that was exactly 29 seconds.”

I think your point about the skill is absolutely true. Some podcasts start with inside banter about this great new breakfast place and this crazy weather we’re having. Others tell inside jokes of previous episodes, when listeners might be hearing something in June that was recorded in January. All the stuff we learn as entertainers and hosts in radio really does apply to podcasting in terms of keeping it tight, keeping things on point.

The biggest question or most common question I get from clients and potential clients is how long should my podcast be? The answer is as long as it’s good, and too short is better than too long.

One of my early clients works for the National Bone Marrow Transplant Link in Metro Detroit. She was doing a podcast about cancer and cancer patients and interviewing a specialist at Karmanos Cancer Institute. She was planning on doing a 30-minute interview and he was fantastic. He was smooth. Just great on the microphone.

He answered her questions succinctly in a way that can be easily understood. She got through all her questions. She looked at me and said, “Okay, how long was that? And I said, “15 minutes.” She said, “What do we do for the next 15?” I said, “Nothing. We’re done.”

Now that we’ve covered some of the things podcasters can apply from radio, what do podcasters do very well that radio can learn from?

Accessibility and being on demand is something that’s in podcasting’s DNA and not radio. So podcasters know, I’ve got to be on Spotify, Apple, everywhere. And now we’re learning you really should be on YouTube as well. If you’re in radio and you’ve got good content, you’ve got to recognize appointment listening is more challenging. During Covid, people’s routines and commutes changed. We’ve got to meet people where they are. You must tell your listeners, we had this great bit today. We had this incredible guest today. Promote it heavily on social, make it available where they are and when they need it.

What do you think about Amp, Amazon’s new live radio app?

Maybe that’s the new farm system for radio, as opposed to the overnight shows that no longer exist. As opposed to hiring a celebrity or TikTok star, it may actually be a glimpse of a skillset for the magic we create in radio.

Your podcast’s social media accounts are not perceptual research.

Your radio station’s texting account is not perceptual research.

Listener feedback at a remote is not perceptual research.

Consider how easy it is to formulate an opinion about how your audio brand is doing based on “core” feedback. For this exercise, I’ll include you and your fellow employees in your core, because you are likely the most loyal listeners of all.

Throughout the day, the core is where most of the feedback originates. This could be internal feedback in the building on a morning show bit, or a call-in, or a listener at a remote. Through this lens, you’re likely to hear a lot of “I loved it when you…” and “I listen every…” and “You play the best…”

Everyone loves positive feedback, but it leads to an insular view of your brand we call “Inside Thinking.”

As my colleague Warren Kurtzman wrote in “Is Inside Thinking Blurring Your Strategic Vision?” Inside Thinkers believe their listeners care deeply about the medium, are paying close attention to the brand, and can be manipulated. This could lead, for example, to running a complicated contest that requires paying attention to numerous things rather than a simply explained promotion that everyone understands how to play.

Of course, focusing on your core isn’t all bad. It’s always been true that your most loyal listeners, your P1s, will generate most of your listening. But if your P1s represent one slice of your listening pie, and the whole pie is shrinking, then the P1 slice is also shrinking.

As another colleague Meghan Campbell recently explained, “Radio won’t grow more listenership from those already listening; there are too many other platforms out there competing for consumers’ time. Radio stations and other audio brands need to reach out to those people in their target audiences who like what these brands have to offer but have no idea they exist.”

When you focus only on your core, you are generally hearing what you want to hear. They already love you. When you learn about your non-P1 Cume, you get indications that may explain why they haven’t converted to a P1. When you broaden the scope of your research beyond your Cume, you get indications why they aren’t listening.  To better understand why, in some cases, we’ve opened research studies to people that express interest in the product the brand provides but are not currently using the medium.

Is the lesson “Don’t focus on your P1s”? Of course not.

I’d consider myself a Starbucks P1 and use their app all the time. Recently in their contesting they’ve started to ask some questions with their game play:

That’s a clever way to get some intel on the consumers that use you the most and an idea of how you can engage with your database.

But when it comes to growing your brand and your medium, remember to take time to adopt Outside Thinking and step outside your core.